I read this back in 2009, happy to see it's still on the internet.
Obviously with today's electricity prices it would use more than $5 per year but even doubled it is extremely cheap.
My issue with the concept is space and convenience. My upright fridge is about this size but it would take up too much space in my kitchen on its side. Worse again that you can't keep anything on top because that's where the door is.
But more crucially, with a chest freezer you can only easily access the stuff on top. If something is a few levels down you have to move a lot of stuff to access it. I wish they came with shelves that cantilevered out like a toolbox, or a vertical lid on rails that lifted like a drawer
the toolbox idea is actually genius. ive been using a chest freezer as a fridge for about 2 years now and the biggest pain is definitely digging through layers of stuff to find what you need. some kind of stackable wire baskets that slide out would solve like 90% of the usability problem honestly
Reminds me of Fly Away Home with the round fridge that would lift out of the counter. True story:
"The refrigerator is round, rising from under the granite countertop with the touch of the button.
Now that is the coolest fridge I've ever seen. Found a video of it in action (yes, featuring the same dad joke all over the comments but that is not stopping me): https://youtu.be/RoGuvvzHY1A?t=416
Mind-bending indeed, but looks pretty impractical. In an ordinary fridge, if your egg carton is a bit out of place, your door may not close properly. In this one, you're going to have liquid omelette slathered all over the place, and how do you even clean the bottom of that thing?
The idea is nice, but one thing I use a refrigerator for constantly is putting rectangular things in there. A box of cake, half of the lasagne left over in its oven dish, various containers, et cetera. Even cartons of milk and yoghurt have a square or oblong horizontal plane. Those round shelves are ideal for cilinders with a small diameter; bottles of condiment and beer, basically.
It's a cool idea, and might be great for a secondary fridge. For a primary fridge though, it's so much more convenient to have direct access to everything through a vertical door. I like energy efficiency, but I'm willing to pay 300kWh a year (around $40 here) for that convenience, let alone the space efficiency.
Most people in dense urban areas would actually pay less. By going vertical you’re freezing a whole m2 that was otherwise necessarily occupied by the fridge. In most places, 300 kWh is much cheaper than an extra irrevocable m2 for your fridge.
Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge.
They seem to have mixed up horizontal and vertical, and if they did, then my reading is that they're saying the cost of the extra floor space (and the loss of the "shelf" space on top of the fridge) when using a chest fridge makes the economics unfavourable for people in dense urban areas, even with the energy savings.
At least, I'm hoping that's what they meant. If they really meant horizontal and vertical in the way they used it then I've got no idea either.
I didn't get it until reading your comment, but I think perhaps they meant 'vertical' as in 'it opens vertically' (chest freezer)—i.e. they didn't mix them up exactly, just used them differently than we expected.
Yeah, I understand your first sentence, but the last part of their comment was
"Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge."
Don't they mean a horizontal fridge is a chest fridge? Which would make it sound like they want their whole comment to be in support of a chest fridge? Which is why none of it makes any sense to me.
That's what makes me think they've simply mixed up horizontal and vertical, because you can't (conveniently) store things on top of a chest fridge, but you can store things on top of a vertical fridge. Basically I think they've got a coherent point if you swap vertical and horizontal throughout their whole comment.
But if I put things on top of it, now I can't get at the food.
I mean, I have one of these as a meat freezer, and sometimes I put things on top of it, and then my wife gets mad at me and moves that thing somewhere because otherwise nobody can open it.
Things on top of my vertical fridge on the other hand (my cat for example), can stay there indefinitely.
Wouldn't a solution be to have the opening on the side and pull it toward you, like a "box on wheels"? As long as the sides of the "box" are thermally insulated, it seems like a sound solution for the stated problem (but certainly not one that's mechanically the cheapest/simplest).
A friend suggested a bottom-hinged door like that on a garbage chute, though well sealed, and as wide as the fridge, so the sides of the door don't get in the way of storing long objects in the fridge.
Horizontal vs vertical is determined by the orientation of the object's longest dimension. Portrait pictures on a wall and fridges with doors that open out are vertical, landscape pictures on a wall and chest freezers are horizontal.
I have cabinets over my vertical fridge that has things put in it. There's only like a 15 cm gap between for airflow. How do you slap a cabinet on top of a horizontal fridge?
If you completely remodeled a kitchen around a chest fridge it might not be too terribly inconvenient. But the major blocker is that virtually every kitchen is designed with a perfect spot for a tall, relatively shallow fridge.
It inherently takes more usable space, there's no design that won't lose space, which makes them impractical in smaller homes. To visualise it, for those living in more spacious areas, imagine a "galley" kitchen: 8 spaces one standard unit size, arranged in 4 on each of two opposite walls, with an aisle in between. One unit may be lost to a door. One must be a hob, another the sink. The hob must not have storage above within 60-70cm vertically, due to fire risk; and limits what may be adjacent as well. A window may prevent the use of some spaces above waist height.
A door that opens outwards uses space that has to be clear anyway because that's where you walk. A door that opens upwards takes space that could have been used for another appliance or storage, or the upper half of a fridge twice the size.
The only way round that would be for it to be able to slide outwards, but that's also inconvenient.
Having said all that, they are a great idea if you have the space.
It's inconvenient as soon as you need to get something from the bottom of the fridge, kitchen layout does not change this one at all. And I grew up in a home with multiple chest fridges in addition to a shelved ones so I know the hurdles.
They are good to store something you're not accessing all the time though, like frozen berries etc.
Yeah, my in-laws literally stand around the fridge with it open for multiple minutes while they shuffle food around to get to things they've tetrised into the back, and then to re-organize once they've gotten what they need.
They periodically live with us because they're quite old at this point, and my wife and I have already discussed replacing our fridge/freezer combo with a standalone fridge and switching solely to a chest freezer in the mudroom just so they stop doing this with the freezer, too.
The freezer is almost entirely for things already in boxes anyway. Frozen wontons, frozen ice cream cones, microwaveable meals, frozen blocks of fish. It's all easy to organize in a chest freezer.
I'd never considered a chest fridge before, and if I didn't have a wife and kids, as of today I'd be seriously considering it. As it is, can't trust kids not to make an inaccessible mess of something like that, and wife wouldn't like the kitchen arrangement becoming wonky. Though the fridge's current position makes it clear a previous owner didn't understand anything about kitchen layouts when they remodeled a MCM home.
Maybe I could put a chest fridge there with cabinetry above (gap between), and then some place we currently have cabinets all the way to the floor, remove the bottom and put in another chest fridge.
Might be something to consider once we've fixed all the supreme fuckups previous owners did.
This reminds me of the Technology Connections fridge rant video. Similar arguments all around, the dumping effect of cold out of a vertical fridge is pretty crazy to watch with a thermal camera.
It registers to me as the same sort of impulse that drives optimizing a bit of rarely-used code. It's more of a principle-based interest than a practical one. In other words, it's very human.
So the cold air spills out when you open it. However the thermal mass of the air inside the fridge can’t be much compared to the thermal mass of the contents of a normal fridge. And of course the more full your fridge, the less cold air there actually is in there to lose anyway.
No doubt that a chest fridge would be more efficient on paper, but it’s far more inconvenient for everyday use. I would question if the efficiency gains are lost by all the time you’d spend with it open digging around for stuff.
This is presumably why vertical freezers have drawers. Theoretically if all the space is taken by drawers, there is no cold air that can immediately fall out. I guess the movement of the drawer would at least disrupt the air in that drawer though, unless it has an individual lid. It does seem like drawers could be used on fridges as well, and gain some of the benefit of this and still be practical. Although not so convenient for the top one.
This only makes practical sense if your energy costs are exorbitant compared to the western industrialized world and you don't care about cold-storage volume relative to room square footage and/or ready access to stored items.
Thus, vertical refrigerators and freezers absolutely dominate.
For exactly the same reason : space is scarce but power even more. Power can also become unavailable in a degraded situation much often than on land. Therefore, it is a better design choice to have a chest freezer.
In a city appartement where floor space is scarce, convenience is a key feature and power costs barely nothing, it is a less obvious choice.
I dispute the convenience, but I think the science has been tested. When you open a regular fridge, because cold air is denser than warm air, much of the cold air immediately falls out, so the fridge needs to work to re-chill the air once you close it. Even when it isn't opened, some amount of cold air leaks out the seals toward the bottom of the fridge (and warmer air leaks in through the top). Chest fridge (or freezer) solves these problems.
That said, most of the thermal mass in the fridge is the food, and after that probably the shelving, so as long as the seals aren't blown, the turnover of air on opening isn't a huge deal.
The science here is also perfectly backed by empiric evidence. Just measure the kWh used in a year and compare. It doesn't really matter how a chest fridge is more efficient, it just is.
The convenience is not as easy to quantify, but I would bet that an experiment would quickly point out that chest fridges are terrible for elderly, children, and anyone with reduced mobility. I'd hypothesise that even able bodied people would get annoyed when they are cooking — I know I would be.
Idea:
If you have a vertical fridge on your countertop and you change the door so that it slides down and the cold air stays inside the part of the fridge still closed by the door, you could sort the things in your fridge by frequency of accessing them.
The door of a fridge is usually used for a lot of frequently used items. Eggs, milk, butter, and what have you. You would have to address losing that in terms of convenience and storage space.
Its possible to design internal structures such that its easier to use as a Fridge and freezer with some loss of space to avoid having to reach down into it. It would waste space and some efficiency however, the more complicated it becomes with assisted lifting and such the worse the gap would become. But the problem is often space, a lot of kitchens do not have 2x the floor area to be putting in chests making them good for secondary storage somewhere else but not a primary kitchen appliance.
There is no doubt its better thermally just because cold air falls out the front of a normal fridge/freezer and huge amounts of energy are wasted everytime you open the door. A chest design looses considerably less of its cooled air but its also a lot more awkward to use and ends up less floor space efficient.
Perhaps the solution is to rethink the role of the fridge in the kitchen. It could be designed to be a part of a kitchen island, or have cabinets placed above it. In conventional kitchens, a chest does not make sense. But it could be well integrated if we start with the assumptions the fridge will be a chest.
I have a bad back and bending over hurts. Statistically it will also start to hurt you someday.
Even if we ignore the pain, there is no way to organize food in a chest freezer effectively. To reach items on the bottom one must remove all the food that sits above it. This wastes time and effort that could better be spent on other things. Meaning the opportunity cost is too high, even if it saves me money on electricity.
Yeah, we have a french door fridge with a lower drawer freezer, and even with that being split into an upper drawer maybe 8" deep, and a lower one ~12" deep. Everything but the top layer and maybe one layer under that, is where food goes to die. And that setup is vastly better at this all than a 30" deep chest, except that when you pull the drawer out, all the benefits of a chest are lost. So (nearly) the worst of both worlds.
More floor space per storage volume is why. Most dwellings in urban and some suburban areas are area constrained for everything, especially appliances, and unable to use chest type freezers my grandparents had to keep loads of venison and catfish in their lake house. It'd also be great™ if freezers used Vacuum Insulation Panels (VIPs).
It's more about freezers than fridges. Less frequent access and ton more work to get the temps back. I never thought about it but it was such an a-ha moment for me when I recently learned about it that I'm genuinely flabbergasted why it's not more popular.
We have two chest freezers for long-term breast milk storage, and the wife ad I have already discussed replacing our conventional freezer/fridge combo for a standalone fridge and only using the chest freezers once the breast milk is all gone. I'm pretty excited about it. Chest freezers are in the nearby mudroom, and it's not like a fridge, where you are grabbing tons of vegetables, dairy, meat, etc. for a single meal.
If you're using the freezer for a meal, you're probably pulling out frozen fish and nothing else, or a microwaveable meal, or something. You are't pulling out carrots, bok choy, pork, milk, cheese, etc. So put it outside the kitchen. A freezer is for storage. A kitchen is for food preparation. Not the same task.
Makes sense if the drawers completely fill the volume of the fridge, so most of the air is inside the drawers and there is minimal air loss when the door opens. If the drawer fronts were insulated, each drawer would effectively be its own chest.
Edit: On a reread, I'm guessing you were talking about individual refrigerated drawers? Multiple drawers in a single insulated box (as I interpreted it) could work though, as it would have less exterior surface area, use less insulation for the same thermal resistance and useable volume and have a single cooling unit, which might be more efficient. It would also fit existing fridge alcoves.
If you designed around it, it would fit where existing kitchens have drawers, and the space typically reserved for a vertical fridge would be occupied by shelving. Kind of a neat idea. Microwave drawers are a thing.
Under-counter refrigerators are also a thing. They're often not cheap, though. KitchenAid has a two-drawer one for around $3,000. But you can find off-brand ones for $700, too. I don't know if the KitchenAid is that much better. There are things to take into account. It's not just as simple as 'put short, 24" deep fridge where drawers go."
What’s the possibility of turning such a device 45 degrees (or even 90)? Would it ruin anything? Because then you could stack two and it wouldn’t be so bad.
I don't think so? The PDF includes "today (2009)", and also "started in 2004". It's been featured on HN before.. as far back as 2009. Unfortunately the archives first caught the (same) text in 2021, so that's not helpful.
Obviously with today's electricity prices it would use more than $5 per year but even doubled it is extremely cheap.
My issue with the concept is space and convenience. My upright fridge is about this size but it would take up too much space in my kitchen on its side. Worse again that you can't keep anything on top because that's where the door is.
But more crucially, with a chest freezer you can only easily access the stuff on top. If something is a few levels down you have to move a lot of stuff to access it. I wish they came with shelves that cantilevered out like a toolbox, or a vertical lid on rails that lifted like a drawer
“The pneumatic fridge works with air compression,” she says. “You step on the button and it pops up and the racks spin like a lazy Susan. Cold air is heavy so it stays cold.”" https://www.thestar.com/life/home-and-garden/paula-lishman-a...
That entire place is mind-bending.
Just as elevator doors won't crush a person due to sensors and such.
The cleaning part is an interesting question.
Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge.
At least, I'm hoping that's what they meant. If they really meant horizontal and vertical in the way they used it then I've got no idea either.
"Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge."
Don't they mean a horizontal fridge is a chest fridge? Which would make it sound like they want their whole comment to be in support of a chest fridge? Which is why none of it makes any sense to me.
I mean, I have one of these as a meat freezer, and sometimes I put things on top of it, and then my wife gets mad at me and moves that thing somewhere because otherwise nobody can open it.
Things on top of my vertical fridge on the other hand (my cat for example), can stay there indefinitely.
A door that opens outwards uses space that has to be clear anyway because that's where you walk. A door that opens upwards takes space that could have been used for another appliance or storage, or the upper half of a fridge twice the size.
The only way round that would be for it to be able to slide outwards, but that's also inconvenient.
Having said all that, they are a great idea if you have the space.
They are good to store something you're not accessing all the time though, like frozen berries etc.
It’s already pretty inconvenient to get something out of the back of a traditional fridge that is completely full.
They periodically live with us because they're quite old at this point, and my wife and I have already discussed replacing our fridge/freezer combo with a standalone fridge and switching solely to a chest freezer in the mudroom just so they stop doing this with the freezer, too.
The freezer is almost entirely for things already in boxes anyway. Frozen wontons, frozen ice cream cones, microwaveable meals, frozen blocks of fish. It's all easy to organize in a chest freezer.
I'd never considered a chest fridge before, and if I didn't have a wife and kids, as of today I'd be seriously considering it. As it is, can't trust kids not to make an inaccessible mess of something like that, and wife wouldn't like the kitchen arrangement becoming wonky. Though the fridge's current position makes it clear a previous owner didn't understand anything about kitchen layouts when they remodeled a MCM home.
Maybe I could put a chest fridge there with cabinetry above (gap between), and then some place we currently have cabinets all the way to the floor, remove the bottom and put in another chest fridge.
Might be something to consider once we've fixed all the supreme fuckups previous owners did.
I do have an upright freezer in the basement. If I ever needed to replace it I’d probably get a chest freezer.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CGAhWgkKlHI
No doubt that a chest fridge would be more efficient on paper, but it’s far more inconvenient for everyday use. I would question if the efficiency gains are lost by all the time you’d spend with it open digging around for stuff.
Thus, vertical refrigerators and freezers absolutely dominate.
In a city appartement where floor space is scarce, convenience is a key feature and power costs barely nothing, it is a less obvious choice.
https://thiaoouba.com/
Please note I am disputing his science on the efficacy of a vertical fridge.
That said, most of the thermal mass in the fridge is the food, and after that probably the shelving, so as long as the seals aren't blown, the turnover of air on opening isn't a huge deal.
The convenience is not as easy to quantify, but I would bet that an experiment would quickly point out that chest fridges are terrible for elderly, children, and anyone with reduced mobility. I'd hypothesise that even able bodied people would get annoyed when they are cooking — I know I would be.
There is no doubt its better thermally just because cold air falls out the front of a normal fridge/freezer and huge amounts of energy are wasted everytime you open the door. A chest design looses considerably less of its cooled air but its also a lot more awkward to use and ends up less floor space efficient.
a: space.
A standup fridge freezer is floor space efficient.
How much rent is the chest freezer using per year :)
Made up numbers 10k for 1000sqft
10 per sq ft
So say $40 a year in rent. Still not too bad I guess
Even if we ignore the pain, there is no way to organize food in a chest freezer effectively. To reach items on the bottom one must remove all the food that sits above it. This wastes time and effort that could better be spent on other things. Meaning the opportunity cost is too high, even if it saves me money on electricity.
Edit: looks like a few chest freezers have a "fridge" setting, which sounds like the easiest way to do this for those interested (maybe)
If you're using the freezer for a meal, you're probably pulling out frozen fish and nothing else, or a microwaveable meal, or something. You are't pulling out carrots, bok choy, pork, milk, cheese, etc. So put it outside the kitchen. A freezer is for storage. A kitchen is for food preparation. Not the same task.
Drawers.
Edit: On a reread, I'm guessing you were talking about individual refrigerated drawers? Multiple drawers in a single insulated box (as I interpreted it) could work though, as it would have less exterior surface area, use less insulation for the same thermal resistance and useable volume and have a single cooling unit, which might be more efficient. It would also fit existing fridge alcoves.
waist level, some below countertops, some above a freezer drawer. humidity settings.
rcfox's criticism from 2009 still stands (6 points, 2 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=865991